December 5, 2019
By Tim Siglin Contributing Editor, Steve Nathans-Kelly
Featured Articles

SMW '19: Teradek Talks End-to-End Encryption and 4K HEVC

Read the complete transcript of this interview:

Tim Siglin: Welcome back to this semi humorous edition of Streaming Media West 2019. I'm Tim Siglin, contributing editor with Streaming Media Magazine. Steve Nathans is behind the camera laughing hysterically and we've got with us Jon Landman.

Jon Landman: Yes.

Tim: Is that right? From Teradek.

Jon: Absolutely.

Tim: And we've talked a couple times over the years. What's new with Teradek and by the way, before you say anything, we're putting in a plug we're using the Vidiu Go.

Jon: Yes, you are.

Tim: Which is actually a really nice box, it's been robust and bulletproof. We've had problems in the past with other solutions we used.

Jon: Yes.

Tim: We really like this.

Jon: That's really refreshing and that's nice to hear. I mean, we've been doing it for long enough, right?

Tim: True.

Jon: I mean, we've got what? 103,469 encoders sold over the last seven years.

Tim: Wow. That's a pretty impressive number.

Jon: You'd think we could learn a thing or two.

Tim: Get it right. Yeah, exactly.

Jon: Yeah.

Tim: So, is hardware still the primary focus or is there cloud? I mean.

Jon: We have both and we see both as very important. If you don't have good encoding, you're not going to have good feed into the cloud. And in designing our own encoders and being able to manage our own encoders from the cloud means that we have a level of sophistication that doesn't exist in a lot of different places.

Tim: And it gives you the end-to-end solution mentality to work with as opposed to just doing one small section?

Jon: Right and having the ability to well A, the ability which we've added encryption end to end, right?

Tim: Mm, right.

Jon: Encryption's become a really important features. Yes, Facebook is our rolled-out RTMPS, which we're supporting, but for a lot of the private streams and a lot of the work that we do, an encrypted stream is very important. And HEVC has been a game-changer for us. I mean, anyone that was at this show has had a look at some of the encoding we've done at 500 kilobits per second. Which, a few years ago, 500 kilobits was about the size of a video stamp, right?

Tim: Right, the postage stamp model.

Jon: It wasn't usable. And even that VidiU Go can do unbelievably good compression with HEVC. But then you're going to say, "What do we do with that and those CDNs supporting HEVC?" Which has been a problem.

Tim: Which is sort of ironic. The encoders can do HEVC, the end devices, a number of them can do HEVC. But as you say that distribution rescaled in the middle.

Jon: And that may change. I mean, I was demonstrating on the stand to a few choice customers, 4K being encoded at HEVC 5 megabits per second. It looked unbelievable. Anyone that is on the fence about 4K should give me a shout and I'll show them some content encoded in 4K.

Tim: So do you have transcoding capabilities if 4K, sorry if HEVC is the contribution, do you have a model where you can say do a cloud service to convert it over to H.264?

Jon: Yes. We have a cloud service called Core.

Tim: Okay.

Jon: Okay, www.core.teradek.com.

Tim: Okay.

Jon: All right? And we can send any one of our encoders, though actually we can take a RTMP feed or an SLT feed or even a WebRTC feed up to our Core account. And if any of those feeds are in HEVC, we can live-transcode those. And what we are doing at the moment is taking, let's say we take an HEVC two-megabit per-second stream. We'll just convert that, we'll double it to a four megabit H.264 feed and send it out.

Tim: H.264, okay. But that essentially allows a lot thinner pipe for contribution on the HEVC side.

Jon: Which is typically the problem.

Tim: Right. And it allows more people to watch it because it's H.264 after the transcode.

Jon: Well, as you said, no CDNs at this point in time are displaying HEVC. But again, I was showing 4K that was compressed in five megabits per second HEVC. There's no way you can do that in 264.

Tim: Sure, right. And yeah, that's why I sort of backed off when I said 4k. Ultimately, we're talking HEVC. I'm assuming the two meg is 1080p HEVC?

Jon: Yeah, we can do 1080p in two meg, it looks great. Again, if anybody wants to see "What does that look like?" You know, get in touch with me, jon@teradek.com. And shoot me an email and I'll either get you some content or send you a link or push you over a file that we've encoded. And you can actually decide for yourself, "What bit rate do I want?"

Tim: Sure.

Jon: Right.

Tim: So what do you see in the next six to twelve months? That's sort of the final question.

Jon: Yeah. That's a good question, if you had asked me yesterday it would have been different today.

Tim: Okay.

Jon: Or it is different today.

Tim: All right.

Jon: Today was the first time that I have seen 4K streamed to my phone.

Tim: Okay. The reason I did that today and set up that demonstration was because a customer came to me earlier today and said, "There's no point streaming 4K to the phone because the phones are so small, you can't see the resolution."

Tim: Can't see the difference.

Jon: You can't see the difference. So what I did, I took a feed from one of 4K encoders, sent it up to the cloud, then pulled it down, opened it up with VLC and we were looking at 4K on the phone and I've got to tell you that it is game-changing. It was unbelievably beautiful. And I don't have the latest iPhone, I have an iPhone 10, so I can only imagine what it looks like with these new HDR images.

Tim: That is interesting because the pixels per inch on those kind of devices are capable of handling much better resolution, which we see in still images, than what we typically would get in H.264. So for most people, it's almost like suddenly their phone is magically better.

Jon: Oh my gosh.

Tim: Because of the fact that they're using HEVC.

Jon: Yes, yeah.

Tim: So is your take that in the next 6-12 months, HEVC begins to get to the point where we thought it might have been a couple years ago?

Jon: I mean, I will say that 4K will definitely be a format that becomes standard for anyone that's wanting to do some kind of quality.

Tim: Which inherently says HEVC is the new H264.

Jon: Yeah, right. And some people are saying, "We'll maybe there'll be a new codec." That's possible, but what I have today is HEVC.

Tim: Sure.

Jon: I think that, I look forward to a year's time and ... five megs per second is not a pipe that, you know, is typically not used. I mean, it's something that we all have. So, big shift towards 4K, big shift towards lower latency. Again, latency is becoming also an issue. So low-latency, 4K, HEVC, or whatever is newer. We're doing a lot more in the cloud as well. Right, so I have the ability to do live switching in the cloud between different feeds. I can switch that up between files, so now I can do files, live feeds, and I can switch them all in the cloud. Or as some customers are doing, they're creating themselves a B-roll opening. Like we had the problem here, before wen were live, there's that 10 awkward seconds that we are.

Tim: Right. Where you don't know whether you're live or not.

Jon: And lucky for us we weren't saying anything too bad.

Tim: Right.

Jon: Having the ability now to load up a file which is you know, "Streaming Media rolling live." You know, "Hey, welcome to Streaming Media 2019."

Tim: And then when you know you're live on the device being able to do that stretch.

Jon: Once you're live on the destination, cut, counts us down three seconds, we're in. It's also nice to be able to have a file he could roll out to.

Tim: Right, sure.

Jon: Right, "See you next year" dah dah dah. We're doing that one more step of creating a more production-like workflow.

Tim: Simulates production style, yeah. [Jon] So now not just a phone or a livestream shaped tier, but now adding some production value. And we'll probably add graphics next year, right? Adding lower-thirds so that you can actually spell my name right.

Tim: Alpha channeling and that sort of thing.

Jon: Yeah, chromakey, slo-mos, yes.

Tim: All right, good. Well Jon, thank you as always for being on here with us.

Jon: My pleasure, and I just wanted to say that this has been one of the best Streaming Media West shows that I've been to. I think the crowd has really been interesting.

Tim: I think they're very engaged this year.

Jon: Yeah, they're very engaged. I had a great time sitting down and doing some very deep dives into what we do with some of customers because yes I'll split it into those that don't yet know about streaming and those that actually do know about streaming. I've realized how to make money in streaming, which was always one of the biggest challenges, right? So now, yes, people are making money from it and this show has enabled me to actually spend some time with these people without getting pulled in 100 different areas. So thank you.

Tim: Good, awesome. You're welcome. Jon, we appreciate it and we'll be right back with our next interview.

Jon: Yeah, chromakey, slo-mos, yes.

Tim: All right, good. Well Jon, thank you as always for being on here with us.

Jon: My pleasure and I just wanted to say that this has been one of the best Streaming Media West shows that I've been to. I think the crowd has really been interesting.

Tim: I think they're very engaged this year.

Tim: Good, awesome. You're welcome. Jon, we appreciate it and we'll be right back with our next interview.

Welcome back to this semi humorous edition of Streaming Media West 2019. I'm Tim Siglin, contributing editor with Streaming Media Magazine. Steve Nathans is behind the camera laughing hysterically and we've got with us Jon Landman.
- [Jon Landman] Yes.
- [Tim] Is that right? From Teradek.
- [Jon] Absolutely.
- Tim: And we've talked a couple times over the years. What's new with Teradek and by the way, before you say anything, we're putting in a plug we're using the Vidiu Go.
- [Jon] Yes, you are.
- [Tim] Which is actually a really nice box, it's been robust and bulletproof. We've had problems in the past with other solutions we used.
- [Jon] Yes.
- [Tim] We really like this.
- [Jon] That's really refreshing and that's nice to hear. I mean, we've been doing it for long enough, right?
- [Tim] True.
- Jon: I mean, we've got what? 103,469 encoders sold over the last seven years.
- [Tim] Wow. That's a pretty impressive number.
- [Jon] You'd think we could learn a thing or two.
- [Tim] Get it right. Yeah, exactly.
- [Jon] Yeah.
- [Tim] So, is hardware still the primary focus or is there cloud? I mean.
- [Jon] We have both and we see both as very important. If you don't have good encoding, you're not going to have good feed into the cloud. And in designing our own encoders and being able to manage our own encoders from the cloud means that we have a level of sophistication that doesn't exist in a lot of different places.
- [Tim] And it gives you the end-to-end solution mentality to work with as opposed to just doing one small section?
- [Jon] Right and having the ability to well A, the ability which we've added encryption end to end, right?
- [Tim] Mm, right.
- [Jon] Encryption's become a really important features. Yes, Facebook is our rolled-out RTMPS, which we're supporting, but for a lot of the private streams and a lot of the work that we do, an encrypted stream is very important. And HEVC has been a game-changer for us. I mean, anyone that was at this show has had a look at some of the encoding we've done at 500 kilobits per second. Which, a few years ago, 500 kilobits was about the size of a video stamp, right?
- [Tim] Right, the postage stamp model.
- [Jon] It wasn't usable. And even that VidiU Go can do unbelievably good compression with HEVC. But then you're going to say, "What do we do with that and those CDNs supporting HEVC?" Which has been a problem.
- [Tim] Which is sort of ironic. The encoders can do HEVC, the end devices, a number of them can do HEVC. But as you say that distribution rescaled in the middle.
- [Jon] And that may change. I mean, I was demonstrating on the stand to a few choice customers, 4K being encoded at HEVC 5 megabits per second. It looked unbelievable. Anyone that is on the fence about 4K should give me a shout and I'll show them some content encoded in 4K.
- [Tim] So do you have transcoding capabilities if 4K, sorry if HEVC is the contribution, do you have a model where you can say do a cloud service to convert it over to H.264?
- [Jon] Yes. We have a cloud service called Core.
- [Tim] Okay.
- [Jon] Okay, www.core.teradek.com.
- [Tim] Okay.
- [Jon] All right? And we can send any one of our encoders, though actually we can take a RTMP feed or an SLT feed or even a WebRTC feed up to our Core account. And if any of those feeds are in HEVC, we can live-transcode those. And what we are doing at the moment is taking, let's say we take an HEVC two-megabit per-second stream. We'll just convert that, we'll double it to a four megabit H.264 feed and send it out.
- [Tim] H.264, okay. But that essentially allows a lot thinner pipe for contribution on the HEVC side.
- [Jon] Which is typically the problem.
- [Tim] Right. And it allows more people to watch it because it's H.264 after the transcode.
- [Jon] Well, as you said, no CDNs at this point in time are displaying HEVC. But again, I was showing 4K that was compressed in five megabits per second HEVC. There's no way you can do that in 264.
- [Tim] Sure, right. And yeah, that's why I sort of backed off when I said 4k. Ultimately, we're talking HEVC. I'm assuming the two meg is 1080p HEVC?
- [Jon] Yeah, we can do 1080p in two meg, it looks great. Again, if anybody wants to see "What does that look like?" You know, get in touch with me, jon@teradek.com. And shoot me an email and I'll either get you some content or send you a link or push you over a file that we've encoded. And you can actually decide for yourself, "What bit rate do I want?"
- [Tim] Sure.
- [Jon] Right.
- [Tim] So what do you see in the next six to twelve months? That's sort of the final question.
- [Jon] Yeah. That's a good question, if you had asked me yesterday it would have been different today.
- [Tim] Okay.
- [Jon] Or it is different today.
- [Tim] All right.
- [Jon] Today was the first time that I have seen 4K streamed to my phone.
- [Tim] Okay. The reason I did that today and set up that demonstration was because a customer came to me earlier today and said, "There's no point streaming 4K to the phone because the phones are so small, you can't see the resolution."
- [Tim] Can't see the difference.
- [Jon] You can't see the difference. So what I did, I took a feed from one of 4K encoders, sent it up to the cloud, then pulled it down, opened it up with VLC and we were looking at 4K on the phone and I've got to tell you that it is game-changing. It was unbelievably beautiful. And I don't have the latest iPhone, I have an iPhone 10, so I can only imagine what it looks like with these new HDR images.
- [Tim] That is interesting because the pixels per inch on those kind of devices are capable of handling much better resolution, which we see in still images, than what we typically would get in H.264. So for most people, it's almost like suddenly their phone is magically better.
- [Jon] Oh my gosh.
- [Tim] Because of the fact that they're using HEVC.
- [Jon] Yes, yeah.
- [Tim] So is your take that in the next 6-12 months, HEVC begins to get to the point where we thought it might have been a couple years ago?
- [Jon] I mean, I will say that 4K will definitely be a format that becomes standard for anyone that's wanting to do some kind of quality.
- [Tim] Which inherently says HEVC is the new H264.
- [Jon] Yeah, right. And some people are saying, "We'll maybe there'll be a new codec." That's possible, but what I have today is HEVC.
- [Tim] Sure.
- [Jon] I think that, I look forward to a year's time and ... five megs per second is not a pipe that, you know, is typically not used. I mean, it's something that we all have. So, big shift towards 4K, big shift towards lower latency. Again, latency is becoming also an issue. So low-latency, 4K, HEVC, or whatever is newer. We're doing a lot more in the cloud as well. Right, so I have the ability to do live switching in the cloud between different feeds. I can switch that up between files, so now I can do files, live feeds, and I can switch them all in the cloud. Or as some customers are doing, they're creating themselves a B-roll opening. Like we had the problem here, before wen were live, there's that 10 awkward seconds that we are.
- [Tim] Right. Where you don't know whether you're live or not.
- [Jon] And lucky for us we weren't saying anything too bad.
- Right.
- [Jon] Having the ability now to load up a file which is you know, "Streaming Media rolling live." You know, "Hey, welcome to Streaming Media 2019."
- [Tim] And then when you know you're live on the device being able to do that stretch.
- [Jon] Once you're live on the destination, cut, counts us down three seconds, we're in. It's also nice to be able to have a file he could roll out to.
- [Tim] Right, sure.
- [Jon] Right, "See you next year" dah dah dah. We're doing that one more step of creating a more production-like workflow.
- [Tim] Simulates production style, yeah. [Jon] So now not just a phone or a livestream shaped tier, but now adding some production value. And we'll probably add graphics next year, right? Adding lower-thirds so that you can actually spell my name right.
- [Tim] Alpha channeling and that sort of thing.
- [Jon] Yeah, chromakey, slo-mos, yes.
- [Tim] All right, good. Well Jon, thank you as always for being on here with us.
- [Jon] My pleasure and I just wanted to say that this has been one of the best Streaming Media West shows that I've been to. I think the crowd has really been interesting.
- [Tim] I think they're very engaged this year.
- [Jon] Yeah, they're very engaged. I had a great time sitting down and doing some very deep dives into what we do with some of customers because yes I'll split it into those that don't yet know about streaming and those that actually do know about streaming. I've realized how to make money in streaming, which was always one of the biggest challenges, right? So now, yes, people are making money from it and this show has enabled me to actually spend some time with these people without getting pulled in 100 different areas. So thank you.
- [Tim] Good, awesome. You're welcome. Jon, we appreciate it and we'll be right back with our next interview.